Friday, 4 February 2011
Rosencrantez and Guildenstern
Firstly I want to apologise for my reading, not having the right book and holding everyone up. R and G I will call them to save time, corrupt or innocent? My views are that they are corrupt. This is because the King and Queen ask them to help fix the situation, they couldn't be happier to obey the King and Queen after they hear about the thank you that they will receive for doing this task. This shows that their friends health and well being isn't actually at heart and that it isn't their intention when they enrol in this task. On the other hand they could be doing it out of good intention and the royal thank you is just a bonus, they may have already made up their mind about helping their friend Hamlet. I don't think they are loyal at all I just think killing them is a bit extreme, even though I see Hamlet's point. I really don't want to take up all of the ideas, not taken up many at all but yeah I want to give other people a chance to say what they actually think.
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FIRST ONE YES.... ;)
ReplyDeleteWhat you haven't covered is the fact that Guildenstern said 'heaven make our prescence... helpful to him'... Surely this means what he is actually thinking of is his friend's welfare, not his own gain? This shows the possibility that R & G are loyal friends.
Also, when Hamlet actually says to them 'If you love me, hold not off' and straight away to this Guildenstern replies 'My lord, we were sent for'. So this shows once again that when it comes down to it, R & G are prepared to face the anger of the King and Queen for not keeping the secret, in order to show their loyalty to Hamlet.
However, there's also the possibility that R & G have split motives- maybe one is loyal and one is not?
ReplyDeleteFor example, the quotes I used in the last comment to show loyalty were both Guildenstern's words.... But what about Rosencrantz? He is slower to follow Guildenstern's loyal footsteps, and is more torn in what to say to Hamlet, for example when Hamlet asks for the truth, R says 'what say you?' to G, suggesting R is avioding the question and wants to stay on the King and Queen's side. Also R is the only one who lies outright- when Hamlet asks why they have come R says 'to visit you, my lord, no other occasion'.
First of all, *right. Sorry Kyle but it had to be done. :) Anyhoo, I agree on what Kyle said about R and G being disloyal to Hamlet and they should be because they're meant to be his friends and I think friends should be loyal. However I believe that they do have Hamlet's best interests at heart in a way and this makes them good friends, like Alice has said. Hmm dilemma. Also Kyle's point about killing them being a bit extreme is very true. I mean it's not like they did anything that bad, they were only obeying the King and Queen's requests.
ReplyDeleteI think what Alice said about R and G having split motives interesting, I've not really noticed this before. But come to think of it why treat R and G like they are one person?
As much as I enjoyed reading Alice's TWO comments - i think it's very greedy as my comment was word for word to yours, and i now have to do another one... geeez.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, i think R and G are normal people, not saying they're something special, but i dont think they are corrupt villains! In addition to Kyle's comment about maybe the special mention is just a bonus - i agree. And i agree becauuuuse if it was your friend that was really down, e.g. their dad just died down, then of course you'd try and cheer them up, but if your friends mother and recently married husband just so happened to be the King and Queen, you would make it sound like you're doing it out of respect for them, which in some way you are whether you know it or not (BOOM). Also, the King and Queen giving out special mentions might not even be a big deal to the King, he could have promised it to everyone! So really, he could be promising the equivalent of giving out a box a chocolates.
On the other hand (in response to Alice's comment about the eventually admitting that they were sent for), R and G might not be admitting they were summoned to come because they felt bad for lying to Hammy. I think it could be because they've been 'friends' with Hamlet for a long time, and obviously know how clever he is (e.g. we, the audience, noticed it as soon as he began talking), and realised that their lying wasnt adequate enough to get anything past him.
Another thing i would like to say which is in responce to Holly, which was in response to Alice (wow) is that yes they were just obeying the King and Queen's request, but did they have to make such little effort to really find out what was going on with him? For example, in act 2, scene 2 line 259 - 276, Hamlet delivers a beautifully deep speech about how he is seeing things, how he sees people for who they really are - "the earth seems to me a sterile promontory". Howeeever, R and G, the plonkers, just ignore that and have a little giggle and just ignore the massively important thing, the thing they were sent to find out about (his feelings, supposedly) and just banter on. Now that ain't right....
I totally agree that R and G are corrupt. I firmly believe that the are greedy and selfish and are after any excuse to gain some sort of power or a Kings reward. I think it isn't nice of them to be like this and betray their friend who they have known for a long time, however if they betrayed Hamlet they lost a friend and if they betray the King, they lose more (I think Mr F mentioned this last lesson actually). However I believe that everyone is a Rational Self-Interested Person (RSIP's, if you will) which the idea made by Thomas Hobbes that people and nature was "nasty, brutish, and short" which basically means that I think everyone is out for own personal gain. I'm sure if roles were reversed in Hamlet, and he was in R and G's shoes, he'd probably do the same. I cannot believe I just put some philosophy into this, please accept my most sincerest apologies. However, I can see Alice's other point she made about R and G's 'split motives', perhaps they do have Hamlet's best interested, but feel pressured, compelled and forced into doing a deed for the King. Or do they? Having also read Fiona's response to Holly's response which was in response to Alice (I think?) I don't think R and G would make great friends, like everyone's said, they didn't go to great efforts to find out what was wrong with him, they do just act a little immature and go on about ladies. They seem unintelligent and boisterous. [Exit Steph]
ReplyDeleteI agree with Alice when she says that R and G could be seen as loyal when Guilderstern tells Hamlet they were sent for, and I also see what she means about Rosencrantz being slower to be loyal than Guildenstern, and I thought that maybe this was because they are supposedly sort of one person, maybe they are the conflicting opinions of one person? AAAH I'm not making sense, but what I mean is, maybe Guildenstern is like the loyal side of the person, and Rosencrantz is the more selfish side?
ReplyDeleteOO also, about the immature thing Steph mentions, about them acting boisterous and immature, maybe that is how they used to act with him, and so they're just trying to inject a bit of reality into the situation? Like by treating him how they used to he might get better, like by doing that they think they will make him feel like his old self.
Whoa guys whoa, lets bare in mind that even Rosencranz and Guildenstern ARE corrupt, as Steph said, I believe that they are NOT as ignorant as they put across. I believe they know exactly what situation they're in, and, like Hamlet, could be aware that they are in a play, and have to go by the rules. It could be seen as that they are covering all the bases. Manipulative villains? Trying to get into higher ranks and win fame and fortune etc? Tragic victims? Reaching out to their ally,their friend in need, only to be MURDERED by Hamlet's own rash decisions? They often seem to blend into one another, and become just one entity. This could be seen as them not being proper characters, just tools for Shakespeare to manipulate and for Hamlet to work out the situations that he is in. But what if, like Hamlet, they know that this is a play, and know no matter what they WILL be manipulated by something; the king, director etc, and so use their manipulation to benefit themselves? Hmm? HMM?
ReplyDeleteGOOD LORD I'M THE LAST ONE. Yes Holly, and Alice and whoever else made this comment, R an Gdog could just be seen as feeling it is their duty to obey the King and Queen,'we will ourselves provide'. They are flattered, 'two men there is not living to whom he more adheres' and in a sense bribed 'shall receive such thanks as fits a king's remembrance', so do they have much choice? Who isn't partial to a nice bitta flattery and bribery? So, maybe I have changed my mind from last lesson. Maybe G and R should not be killed, maybe most people, in their position, would do the same thing. Just realised I've only commented on one persons, so... YES FIONA, THEY ARE NORMAL PEOPLE. k thanks bye
ReplyDeleteAlso, how cute is it that Kyle apologised for his reading? I think that counts as commenting on what he put. But if it doesn't, yeah they are helping the King and Queen fix the situation because they love dear old Hamlet, gawd.
ReplyDelete